Negation/help

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Negation/help
Message from passenger75 posted on 25-06-2015 at 23:21:59 (D | E | F)
Hello
Would you please help me with this question?
Saying " I'm not a doctor." is simply flawless.
But how about saying" I'm no doctor." ? By the way, I saw a British guy write so...
Thanks in advance

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Edited by lucile83 on 25-06-2015 23:57

Re: Negation/help from gerondif, posted on 25-06-2015 at 23:34:41 (D | E)
Hello,
Both are correct. To my mind,
"I am not a doctor" is about the job you don't practise.
"I'm no doctor" is about the medical knowledge you don't have.

Many years ago, I recorded on the short waves (BBC, Oct 29th, 1985)) an interview of Ronald Reagan who was asked about his relations with the Soviet Union and he replied: "Oh, I'm no linguist, but I've been told that in Russian, there isn't even a word for "freedom"..... other times....

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 26-06-2015 at 03:10:02 (D | E)
Hello
"I'm not a doctor" is proper English.
"I'm no doctor" is not proper English. It is closer to slang than anything. It is the way someone might reply in a conversation like this:

"He is really sick, what should we do?"
"I don't know, I'm no doctor!"

Everyone would understand saying it either way, but the first one: "I'm not a doctor" is proper and the second one is not.
I hope that helps.

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Edited by lucile83 on 26-06-2015 07:43

Re: Negation/help from berengaria, posted on 26-06-2015 at 09:05:50 (D | E)
Hello,
I would agree with gerondif on this one. "I'm no doctor" expresses a different idea than "I'm not a doctor".
"I'm no linguist" as Reagan said, shows that the speaker doesn't have professional or specialist knowledge. So, if Reagan was wrong in his claim that there is no Russian word for freedom, then he really isn't responsible for the mistake. He doesn't know any Russian.
Whereas, as gerondif points out, "I'm not a doctor" means that it is not your job. "I'm a doctor, not a linguist."
The form "I'm no doctor" might not pass strict grammatical standards, but it is so common in everyday use that even university professors and Wall Street bankers would use it without a second thought.
Clearly wrong, or "slang" as rachelle has brought up, would be "I ain't no doctor", which you might hear from people with not very much education.

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Edited by lucile83 on 26-06-2015 09:15
Standard layout.

Re: Negation/help from gerondif, posted on 26-06-2015 at 12:50:27 (D | E)
Hello,Berengaria,

Thanks to you , I have just revised this: (dictionary on line with a double click on "different") :
different from [sth/sb] adj + prep (not like) différent de adj + prép
different than [sth/sb] adj + prep US, colloquial (different from) différent de adj + prép
different to [sth/sb] adj + prep UK, colloquial (different from) différent de adj + prép

It ain't me says this , it's the dictionary!

Re: Negation/help from carlabice47, posted on 26-06-2015 at 20:31:57 (D | E)
Hello,
Shakespeare: Julius Caesar: Act 3, Scene 2.
Julius Caesar
They're wise and honourable, and will no doubt give you reasons for it. I haven't come to steal your loyalty, friends. I'm no orator, as Brutus is. I'm only, as you ...
If it's improper use , what do you say about it ?

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Edited by lucile83 on 26-06-2015 21:13

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 26-06-2015 at 21:57:25 (D | E)
Hello again,

I am sorry to not have explained properly. It is actually rather complicated.
I think I will do a better job of explaining by providing examples.
"Should we put some medication on this injury?"
"Why are you asking me? I'm no doctor!"

"Will that become injected?"
"I don't know! I'm no doctor!"

"That looks infected, should we let John take a look at it?"
"Why? John is no doctor."
vs
"Are you a doctor?"
"No, I am/I'm not a doctor."

"Is he a doctor?"
"No, he is not a doctor."

"Is she a doctor or an electrician?"
"She is not a doctor, she is an electrician." >> If you were to reply: "She's no doctor, she's an electrician." it could be perceived as a slight against her. The nuance might be heard as: "She isn't good enough to be a doctor, so she is an electrician."

To say someone is "no doctor" could be, in some situations, perceived as rude.
"He's a mechanic, he's no doctor." This is a somewhat rude statement.
"He's a mechanic, he is not a doctor." This is not a rude statement, it is a statement of fact.

I am speaking from the American point of view on how people perceive the difference between the two statements.
I hope it will shed more light.

Re: Negation/help from gerondif, posted on 26-06-2015 at 23:57:35 (D | E)
Hello, Rachelle,
Yes, I see what you mean and would feel the same.
He is no doctor could be understood as: he hasn't got the competences,he hasn't got the brains for it, he's got a much lower job.

Re: Negation/help from here4u, posted on 27-06-2015 at 00:12:11 (D | E)
Hello all of you,
English is spoken ... all over the world, and not everybody speaks American English, (and not every American speaks the same language,) do they?
Once again, we have to remember that this site is for people to Learn ..., remember and imitate...
I'm sorry, Rachelle, but your 'sorry to not have explained' would really be considered improper in exams...
All the best.

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 27-06-2015 at 00:18:00 (D | E)
Hello gerondif,
Exactly!!!!
It would of course be okay for a person to say that about themselves, "I'm no doctor!" but when said of someone else, it could be perceived as a slight for the very reason you just said.
I'm not fond of using that particular phrasing. It is "smart-aleck" or I believe the British may say "cheeky." Somewhat condescending to someone.

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 27-06-2015 at 00:30:45 (D | E)
Hello here4u,
I am sorry for the direction this thread has gone. I meant no offense.
True, English is spoken many places.
What I have attempted to explain applies to the United States and native speakers here. I can assure you that any native speaker in the US will think of this doctor thing the same way. Maybe that information could be helpful to someone.

"Sorry to not have explained" - My grammar is normally excellent and I will take more care in the future to ensure I do not type in the way most of us (US) speak. So on that note, it should have been written: "I'm sorry that I did not explain."

Have a wonderful day.

Re: Negation/help from here4u, posted on 27-06-2015 at 07:52:19 (D | E)
Hello Rachelle,

Don't worry Rachelle! I'm not offended and nobody on this thread is ... ( I'm sure)
A 'bunch of us' here enjoy these discussions about English and what is said where. Simply, most Learners on the site are craving to learn 'academic English' helping them through exams, tests or simple questions...
We're here to help them, not to confuse them, as they don't have enough experience of the language to make their own linguistic choices. Putting a sign is certainly the best indication and help I've seen on this site.( Hello dear friend! !) It helps soften the assertiveness of our words and leaves room for reflexion and more research if we fancy it... Look how gerondif went back to his dictionaries out of curiosity!
Be sure that I love English... and obviously variety is part of that feeling!
Have a good weekend!

Re: Negation/help from here4u, posted on 27-06-2015 at 15:47:39 (D | E)
hello!
In fact, we all agree, don't we ? ...I don't think 'he's no doctor/orator' is more American than British English... and it can really have that derogatory meaning Rachelle was feeling in it ! (depending on the tone, intention, intonation you have in your sentence!) Antony was manipulating the mob into believing that Brutus was an orator, that he lied because Caesar wasn't ambitious, and therefore, wrongfully killed him... (though I'm no specialist in Shakespeare! )

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 27-06-2015 at 16:38:07 (D | E)
Hello,
Ok, good. As a person learning and practicing a foreign language, I am often worried that I will say something in a way that could be construed as offensive. My thoughts, then, were to guide people away from possibly doing that. I have done it, (as I am sure all foreign language learners have) and it is quite embarrassing.

I once asked a French waitress where I could take a bath. Now, THAT was embarrassing.

Re: Negation/help from gerondif, posted on 29-06-2015 at 00:51:57 (D | E)
Hello again,
When Rachelle says:
"Sorry to not have explained" - My grammar is normally excellent and I will take more care in the future to ensure I do not type in the way most of us (US) speak. So on that note, it should have been written: "I'm sorry that I did not explain."

Does it mean that "Sorry to not have explained" is considered correct in spoken American and will raise no eyebrow ?
Because I have always been taught that, like "to be or not to be, that is the question", a negative infinitive should be:
I am sad not to come.
so: "Sorry not to have explained better" would be what I expect to hear.
The fact that Rachelle corrects her sentence into:"I'm sorry that I did not explain." implies that her "Sorry to not have explained" goes unnoticed over there. Is that the case ?

Mind you,I still remember Kennedy's inaugural speech: "Ask not what your country can do for you" with stress on "not". I wouldn't replace it by "don't ask" but would correct a pupil who would say "Speak not!"

Re: Negation/help from berengaria, posted on 30-06-2015 at 19:40:08 (D | E)
Hello,

As far as I understand it "Ask not what your country..." is rhetorical speech used for effect. Imagine an ancient Roman senator or lawyer speaking to a crowd. "Speak not of things to come!" is either from a speech or from a poem and phrased that way to grab attention. On the note of correctness: yes, a lot of people want to learn a language in order to get a qualification and they need to know the formal rules. No one would argue that. But there is also OVER correctness. I've been laughed at a number of times when I'm speaking German to Germans because, according to them, I "speak like a book" or "like I'm the best pupil in the class" and not like a normal German. Or sometimes I'm not even understood when I use a term or a phrase I learned in my German classes at university. There are different levels of language and the way people in a country actually use their language is, in my eyes, just as important as knowing the formal ideas. And it won't get you laughed at, made fun of, joked about or even corrected after you've gotten (attention: American English!! ) your certificate and are actually dealing with native speakers from all walks of life. That's why knowing everyday usage is good, even if you don't choose to use it yourself.

And I would say that in the West & South of the US, Rachelle's initial formulation wouldn't raise eyebrows, no.

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Edited by lucile83 on 30-06-2015 19:49

Re: Negation/help from lucile83, posted on 30-06-2015 at 20:02:10 (D | E)
Hello,
I must say that this site is helping people to learn British English, formal and correct BE.
Once the students who visit the site have taken and passed their exams, they are free to use the level of language they want to.
We sometimes accept familiar terms, or even slang as a kind of comparison.
We can't accept expressions which would make students fail their exams if they used them. That's why we sometimes correct messages.
I hope you'll understand our position on that subject.
Regards

Re: Negation/help from rachelle, posted on 07-07-2015 at 03:12:48 (D | E)
Hello,
In reference to: "The fact that Rachelle corrects her sentence into:"I'm sorry that I did not explain." implies that her "Sorry to not have explained" goes unnoticed over there. Is that the case ?"
Either way of saying it would be perfectly well understood in the US. The former would be slightly more formal and the latter, a bit less so.
I do understand the need for the site to use proper grammar. I just wanted to provide that last explanation.
Thank you.

Re: Negation/help from chrys, posted on 09-07-2015 at 19:30:20 (D | E)
I quote Rachelle : "I once asked a French waitress where I could take a bath. Now, THAT was embarrassing. " :
I think this thread is very interesting. Thanks a lot for all of you, reading you, I learnt a lot

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